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胡如珊畢業(yè)于加州大學(xué)伯克萊建筑學(xué)院，獲建筑學(xué)學(xué)士學(xué)位竖席；之后又獲得普林斯頓大學(xué)建筑及城市規(guī)劃碩士學(xué)位耘纱。在2004年，胡如珊女士與郭錫恩先生共同創(chuàng)立了如恩設(shè)計(jì)研究室（NERI&HU）毕荐。
作為中國(guó)當(dāng)代先鋒女性建筑師束析，堅(jiān)持以作品來說話。其作品在堅(jiān)持先鋒立場(chǎng)的同時(shí)憎亚，往往給人帶來本土的記憶员寇。不刻意追求形式的背后，對(duì)設(shè)計(jì)問題的深入分析研究第美，做具有批判思維的建筑師蝶锋。
2017年5月7日14:00-17:30，清華大學(xué)學(xué)生文化活動(dòng)中心多功能廳斋日，榫卯Talks牲览，讓我們一起分享她最為獨(dú)到的建筑觀點(diǎn)墓陈。
——編者
受訪人：胡如珊
如恩設(shè)計(jì)（Neri&Hu）與設(shè)計(jì)共和（Design Republic）
創(chuàng)始合伙人
普林斯頓大學(xué)建筑及城市規(guī)劃碩士
2016&2015同濟(jì)大學(xué)建筑與城市規(guī)劃學(xué)院碩博研究生課程客座講師
2017年EDIDA國(guó)際設(shè)計(jì)大獎(jiǎng)年度設(shè)計(jì)師
Q：上海對(duì)你們來說意味著什么恶守？上海的本土元素是否會(huì)融入你們的設(shè)計(jì)之中？
A：我的父親是上海人贡必，從上海到臺(tái)灣兔港、到美國(guó)，最終又回到了上海仔拟，在這里工作生活衫樊。我的設(shè)計(jì)靈感大部分來源于日常的生活，平凡的人，普通的事科侈，當(dāng)然也包括上海這座城市的獨(dú)特肌理载佳，城市內(nèi)外發(fā)生的日常活動(dòng)與事件都是我們創(chuàng)意的源泉臀栈。
與倫敦或紐約不同蔫慧，上海這座亞洲城市蘊(yùn)含著許多亞洲以及中國(guó)的元素。在某些方面权薯，它其實(shí)有著非常多的本土特色姑躲，不像倫敦、紐約這樣的城市那么現(xiàn)代化盟蚣。比如黍析，在市井深處的一些街巷，你完全看不到任何國(guó)際大都市的元素屎开，它仍然和20年前一樣阐枣，具有它自身獨(dú)特的吸引力。
My father was from Shanghai, and I felt it was a personal coming-back-forth circle for me to move back and to practice to Shanghai.
I’m very much inspired by the everyday, the mundane and the ordinary. The very fabric of Shanghai as a city and the everyday activities in and around the city is very much an inspiration.
Shanghai is mostly different from London and New York because it is an Asian city, so the qualities of Asia/China, is embedded within everything we see around the city.It is also very raw in certain parts, in ways that you can no longer see in more modernized cities like NY and London.For example, within some lanes and in small strips of the city you cannot see any sign of the world at large, it's still like how the city was 20 years ago, and that in itself is very charming.
Q：如恩有很多上海老房子的改造項(xiàng)目牍戚，在選擇材料上侮繁，你們是如何考慮的？
A：這些老房子的改造有時(shí)會(huì)采用相同的材料如孝，并在臨時(shí)的場(chǎng)景中重復(fù)使用宪哩，如紅磚、灰磚第晰；有時(shí)又會(huì)運(yùn)用具有古典現(xiàn)代主義意義的普通材料來展現(xiàn)裝飾歷史與現(xiàn)代主義簡(jiǎn)潔之間的對(duì)話锁孟，例如大面積的透明玻璃，鋒利的槽鋼茁瘦，白石膏或石膏板品抽。淺橡木或深胡桃木等天然材料常用作室內(nèi)裝飾，能營(yíng)造出溫暖的空間氛圍甜熔，平衡歷史建筑的過去與未來圆恤。
Sometimes it is taking the same material and repeating it in temporary context, such as red or grey bricks, other times it is using quiet, ordinary material in the classical sense of modernism to showcase a dialogue between the ornamented history and the cleanliness of modernity, such as large panels of clear glass, sharp- edged steel channels, and white plaster or gypsum board. Natural wood, either light oak or dark walnut, have often been considered for interior finishes, for the warmth it brings to a space, and the balance it brings to a historic building that mediates between past and future.
Q：在項(xiàng)目的建造過程中，你們是否遇到過特別難以解決的問題腔稀？又是如何處理的盆昙？
A：時(shí)間的限制是最大的難題，很多的項(xiàng)目都需要在“昨天”完成焊虏，我們希望能夠有更多的時(shí)間和空間對(duì)設(shè)計(jì)進(jìn)行綜合考慮淡喜。
有時(shí)候也會(huì)遇到一些比較難溝通的業(yè)主。對(duì)于一個(gè)項(xiàng)目的構(gòu)想和概念會(huì)有不同的意見诵闭，這樣的問題還是會(huì)通過更多的溝通的來解決炼团，但是也會(huì)消耗很多的時(shí)間和精力澎嚣。
Time constraint is the biggest problem. All projects need to be finished yesterday, which leaves little room or time to think about design in a comprehensive way.
Difficult client is another big issue.It is always hard to work with people who don't see your vision and do not support your ideas.
Q：在如恩諸多酒店建筑的設(shè)計(jì)中，你們是否秉持著類似的一種審美傾向瘟芝？
A：在設(shè)計(jì)的時(shí)候易桃，我們很少會(huì)用某種風(fēng)格來定義自己。如果一定要加個(gè)標(biāo)簽的話锌俱，我們覺得自己是“具有批判性思維的建筑師”颈抚，深入研究問題，并找出對(duì)應(yīng)的解決辦法嚼鹉。我們對(duì)空間和材料的本質(zhì)有自己的執(zhí)念和解讀贩汉，因而會(huì)更多傾向于接近天然材料和柔和色調(diào)的審美。
We rarely think of the labeling of styles when we design.If anything, we like to see ourselves as “critical thinking architects”, where we probe into problems in a deep way and come up with resolutions that respond to the problem.We uphold a certain obsession and ideal about the "truth" in space and material, and therefore it naturally leads to an aesthetic that is closer to natural materials and a muted color palette.
Q：如恩在保持國(guó)際性的同時(shí)锚赤，是怎樣傳遞中國(guó)的本土意識(shí)的匹舞？你們?cè)噲D去創(chuàng)造一種“中國(guó)設(shè)計(jì)”嗎？
A：國(guó)際的設(shè)計(jì)每時(shí)每刻都在向中國(guó)滲透线脚，中國(guó)自己也在飛速地吸收著這些能量赐稽。這種現(xiàn)象帶來的一個(gè)問題就是大部分人對(duì)自己所看到和使用的東西并不在意，無論好壞與否浑侥，適合與否姊舵，都被全盤接受。
我們一開始接受的是西方傳統(tǒng)建筑教育寓落，但從文化上來說括丁，我們又非常本土化（中國(guó)化），這種融合無疑對(duì)我們有著很大的影響伶选，特別是對(duì)于國(guó)內(nèi)的項(xiàng)目史飞。但對(duì)于國(guó)外的項(xiàng)目，我們也會(huì)去探索項(xiàng)目當(dāng)?shù)氐奈幕蜌v史仰税。
我們不會(huì)去刻意做什么构资，而且這種本地化的探索并不適用于所有項(xiàng)目類型。但有些時(shí)候陨簇，我們也會(huì)嘗試尋找傳遞吐绵、展現(xiàn)“文化”的新方法。建筑中體現(xiàn)的文化是很難形容的河绽，但我們的目標(biāo)和興趣是嘗試新的方式己单，并喚醒一種不同于以往的一成不變或過度使用的中國(guó)文化意識(shí)。
China is being infiltrated with global energy and design influence on a daily basis, and the absorption rate is extremely high.The problem that comes with this phenomenon is that people are not quite critical about what they see and use, so regardless of good/bad, appropriate/inappropriate, they are all being taken in.
The traditional western architectural rhetoric form the basis of our education, but culturally we are very much Chinese, and there are Influences particularly in our work that’s located in China. We also like to examine local culture of where our work is so that depends on where the project is located.
We don't try to do anything forced, and such exploration isn't appropriate for every project type.When it is interesting, however, we do try to find new ways of expressing and representing "culture", in a way.What culture is in architecture is hard to say, but our intention and interest is trying ways that are fresh and evokes a different sense of Chinese culture from the one that's stereotypical or overly used.
Q：你認(rèn)為的城市應(yīng)該是怎樣的葵姥？設(shè)計(jì)師在這樣的語(yǔ)境下應(yīng)該扮演怎樣的角色荷鼠？
A：我認(rèn)為城市是文化生產(chǎn)的場(chǎng)所句携，是集體回憶的基礎(chǔ)榔幸，意義遠(yuǎn)遠(yuǎn)超越了現(xiàn)今大多數(shù)城市規(guī)劃者所關(guān)注的數(shù)據(jù)和圖表。我認(rèn)為，它的神圣和象征功能要比實(shí)際的居住功能更為重要削咆。我認(rèn)為現(xiàn)今建筑師的角色與阿爾伯蒂時(shí)期并無太大差異牍疏。當(dāng)時(shí)他認(rèn)為建筑師是哲學(xué)家、才藝學(xué)生拨齐，在文化領(lǐng)域具有重要的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)地位鳞陨。考慮到這一點(diǎn)瞻惋，我的工作不只是聽從大家的商業(yè)意見厦滤，而是在與開發(fā)商/業(yè)主的合作中保持高度敏銳感。我們不僅要評(píng)判業(yè)主的要求歼狼，也要評(píng)判我們自己的工作掏导。我們應(yīng)該堅(jiān)信一些先鋒的東西，不屈服于平庸或無意義羽峰。我們每個(gè)人可能關(guān)心的問題都不同趟咆，環(huán)境、美學(xué)或形式等等梅屉，無論如何值纱，這就是我們應(yīng)該堅(jiān)定的立場(chǎng)。
I believe the city to be the site for cultural production and the ground for collective memory that goes beyond just data and charts that most urbanists today is focusing on.I believe that the sacred and symbolic functions are more important than its practical settlement functions. I see the role of the architect today as still not too different from Alberti's time, when he advocated for the Architect as philosopher and students of many arts, that the Architect has an important leadership role in the cultural realm. With this in mind, our job is not simply to "go with the flow" in a commercial sense, nor do we work alongside developers as "clients" without bringing a keen sense of criticality into everything we do.We must be our client's critic as well as our own work's critic.We should be the vanguard of those things that we believe in, and not succumb to mediocrity nor meaninglessness. Each of us may be concerned with different issues, some environmental, others aesthetics and formalism...etc.Whatever it is, that's what we ought to stand up firmly for.
Q：扎根城市不是一件容易的事坯汤。在國(guó)內(nèi)這樣的大環(huán)境下虐唠，建筑師會(huì)經(jīng)常面臨一些現(xiàn)實(shí)的局限，如時(shí)間壓力或一些不可預(yù)測(cè)的條件等惰聂，通常你是如何應(yīng)對(duì)的凿滤？從最初的建筑實(shí)踐到現(xiàn)在，你是如何堅(jiān)持自己的設(shè)計(jì)哲學(xué)庶近，保證在每個(gè)項(xiàng)目里都有自己的研究和探索翁脆？
A：首先，要與合適的業(yè)主合作鼻种，當(dāng)這些業(yè)主與你一樣對(duì)某一問題感興趣反番，他們就會(huì)為你的探索或嘗試買單。當(dāng)這樣的業(yè)主找到你叉钥，他們也會(huì)把你的這種探索視為對(duì)他們有價(jià)值的東西罢缸，有時(shí)是一種商業(yè)/品牌價(jià)值，有時(shí)是項(xiàng)目的原創(chuàng)性投队，這些能驅(qū)使他們的野心和合作精神枫疆。
我們還需要堅(jiān)持我們的價(jià)值體系，而不輕易受到時(shí)尚或潮流的影響敷鸦。在探索和嘗試過程中的每一個(gè)環(huán)節(jié)都保持批判息楔，并且拒絕隨波逐流寝贡，這是我們認(rèn)為至關(guān)重要的態(tài)度。
The beginning is working with the right clients who are interested in the same issues as you, because in a way they have to pay the bill for your exploration.When you have the right client, they will see this exploration as something valuable for them as well, sometimes it is a business/brand value, other times it is the originality of the project that drives their ambition and collaborative spirit.
We also need to hold on to our value system and not be easily swayed by fashion or trend. Stay critical in every step of the process and be courageous to go against the tide is very important.
Q：雖然不太贊同將女性建筑師單獨(dú)拿出來討論值依，但實(shí)在忍不住好奇圃泡。作為國(guó)內(nèi)較知名的女性建筑師之一，你覺得自己的優(yōu)勢(shì)在哪里愿险？又有哪些挑戰(zhàn)呢颇蜡？
A：老實(shí)說，我的性別沒帶給我什么優(yōu)勢(shì)辆亏，我的合伙人是一位男性风秤，所以我們是一個(gè)非常平衡的組合。
我也不認(rèn)為我是一個(gè)獨(dú)自實(shí)踐的設(shè)計(jì)師扮叨，事實(shí)上唁情，我和我的團(tuán)隊(duì)一起工作，而不是像畫家或音樂家一樣自己?jiǎn)为?dú)完成工作甫匹。挑戰(zhàn)很多甸鸟，無處不在，而且不只局限于中國(guó)兵迅。打破默守陳規(guī)總是很難抢韭，這對(duì)誰來說都一樣。因此要把重點(diǎn)放在工作上恍箭，不要聽太多與工作無關(guān)的謠傳或議論刻恭。
大多數(shù)人會(huì)通過封面來評(píng)判一本書的好壞，也許很多人扯夭，尤其是在項(xiàng)目會(huì)議上第一次見到我的業(yè)主和顧問鳍贾，他們一開始不會(huì)像對(duì)待同年齡、同經(jīng)驗(yàn)的男性建筑師一樣尊重我交洗。因此我需要更努力骑科，更好地工作，讓我的作品构拳，而不是我的性別咆爽、膚色或面孔來說話。
No strength, really, because I practice with my partner who is a man, so we are seen as a balanced duo. I like to see my strength as coming from my training, my background, my discipline and critical thinking, rather than being female.
I also don't think I am taken as a solo designer, and in fact I work with the office in a team and never perform solo, unlike a painter or musician.The challenges are more, but the challenges are everywhere and not just China.Fighting stereotype is always hard, but who doesn’t? In one way or another?So it is important to focus on the work, and not listen too much to rumors or criticisms beyond the work itself.
Most judge a book by its cover, and at first glance maybe a lot of people, especially clients and consultants who first meet me in a project meeting will not respect you as much as if I were a man of the same age and experience.So you just work harder to perform better, and let your work speak instead of your gender, color, or face.
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